Exploring Paired Leadership at Scrum Alliance with Howard Sublett


“In this Agile space,” says a familiar voice, “we’ve been talking for years about pair programming and pair coaching; basically, this is pair leadership.” The voice belongs to former long-time host of Agile Amped, Howard Sublett, who left his position as Community Lead at Accenture | SolutionsIQ to become the first ever Chief Product Owner of the Scrum Alliance. In this episode, Sublett talks about his experience sharing the responsibility of leading the Scrum Alliance with Chief Scrum Master Melissa Boggs.

“We have a shared responsibility to lead the organization. Neither can be successful without the other.” Sublett and Boggs are “legally co-CEOs” for the non-profit organization so familiar to agilists around the world. The pair is out to experiment and lead in ways never before seen. “Yes, we’re going to make some mistakes but by God we don’t want to make brand new mistakes; we want to make mistakes that no one else have ever made before, because we had the courage to try.” Howard shares his perspective of the future for the Scrum Gathering, including the many global events they are sponsoring.

Accenture | SolutionsIQ’s Roxi Ozolins reprises her role as host on this special episode, after recording “Building an Agile Culture” with Sublett at the beginning of his tenure at the Scrum Alliance.

Listen on iTunes   Listen on Spotify

Learn more:
1. Scrum Alliance (www.scrumalliance.org)
2. Scrum Gathering Austin (events.scrumalliance.org/austin-2019)

 

Read the full transcript

ROXI OZOLINS: Hi, everyone! And welcome to another episode of Agile Amped. I’m your host, Roxi Ozolins, and today our special guest is someone that a lot of you will recognize, Howard Sublett. For those of you that don’t, let me give you a little bit of intro to Howard.

So, he’s the Chief Product Owner at the Scrum Alliance, a new-ish position for him. He’s been there since September, having previously been at SolutionsIQ as a Chief Community Officer of Culture, which was amazing, and I want to talk today, about what it’s been like, to be at the Scrum Alliance.

I want to hear how this experiment has been going. I want to hear about the journey. I want to hear what it’s been like, and what the changes you’ve made at the Scrum Alliance. Howard, we’re so happy to have you here today, and I can’t wait to hear about all the awesome things that have been going on.

HOWARD SUBLETT: It is always good to get a chance to talk to you. And it is still really awkward, to be on this side of the recording, and be the guest instead of the host.

ROXI OZOLINS: I know.

HOWARD SUBLETT: So, I’m still struggling with that, you know?

ROXI OZOLINS: I know, I know. And, I try not, I’ve listened to so many episodes where you’ve been the host, that I find that I want to mimic that. And I’m like, “Don’t do it! Don’t do it!” He’s on, and that’s so awkward!

HOWARD SUBLETT: Yeah. I’m used to having these things where I’m supposed to be doing 10% of the talking, and let somebody else do 90. And now I’m on the flip side of that. So, yes.

ROXI OZOLINS: And here we are. Okay. So, Howard, it’s been since September, and you are the Chief Product Owner at the Scrum Alliance. This was a new role that they created, right? And so, what has that been like? What has the journey been like?

HOWARD SUBLETT: Well, for the first few months, from September ’til January, it was just me coming on to this role. The role that they were looking for was the CEO, which was the role that I applied for. And, we decided that, as a truly Agile organization, did we need that? I think we talked about that last time, on the last episode.

So, in January, my counterpart, my equal, my peer here, Melissa Boggs, joined in January, as our Chief Scrum Master. And to me, that’s when it’s really gotten interesting. It was, up from September ’til January, it was great. And it was fun and everything, and we learned a lot, and we grew some ways. But the second half of the role that I have, I didn’t have all the tools in my tool belt, right?

So, if you think about the Chief Product Owner’s role is really externally facing. And thinking about the organization of the future, and where we should go, and why. What we should do, and why. The Chief Scrum Master’s role really is to think about how do we achieve those goals. And so, we were in this weird, kind of a nebulous state for those few months, where we didn’t have that other half.

And from January on, Melissa, and if you are listening, and you don’t know who that is, just look at her, and Google her, because you’ll learn a lot about her. She’s a certified enterprise coach. And strangely enough, Roxi, you’ll appreciate this. Like, four years ago, I think it was? Melissa and I first met.

So, it was one of, four or five years ago, it was one of her very first conferences, one of the Agile conferences that she was at, and I saw her topic, and didn’t know her. And I thought, “Man, that would be an interesting topic.” So, we met when she was on the other side of the microphone. And I was interviewing her about her topic.

So, we started our journey together across the microphone from each other, learning about each other, and learning about what she was passionate about. And now, we are, for all intents and purposes, and legally, we’re co-CEOs for this organization. We’re playing the role of Product Owner and Scrum Master.

It’s kind of interesting to talk about how we are together, knowing that it was this podcast that actually put us together in the first place.

ROXI OZOLINS: Wow! Wow, that’s actually really inspiring. Thank you for sharing that. I love that. So, how did the conversations between you two go, those first few weeks? Dividing the tasks, and figuring out how you’re going to work together, and are your visions the same for the company? What was that like, sitting across from your equal like that? I imagine pretty exciting.

HOWARD SUBLETT: It was. It was a chance to actually dream with somebody that shared, we share such similar principles and values, that we haven’t, actually, we’ve been talking about, wondering what moment in time that we’re going to come together and completely disagree on something. And what will that be like?

Because it seems like everything, even potentially risky topics, we both look at each other and go, “Well, I think based on principles, this is how I’d approach it.” And we’d both go, “Well, exactly, that’s how we would approach it.” So, we’re wondering, when’s the moment when we can’t?

It’s actually been really good, kind of dreaming together. So, the things that have been in my head, about where we need to go, and why, and now she’s talking about how we need to structure the organization in order to achieve those. And we’ve talked about some things within the organization, about how to divvy things up, as you asked.

And we’re learning that, number one, we are chartered under the State of Colorado, and as a nonprofit, we have a federal government requirement as well. Neither one of those entities understands what a Chief Product Owner is, or a Chief Scrum Master is. So, there are legal paperwork that requires somebody to write the title CEO down.

There are documents out there, that we have to write that, because those government officials don’t really understand that. So, we decide, well, many of those kind of things are very public-facing, they’re outward-facing. So, as a Product Owner, those probably are in my wheelhouse. Those are things that would be my domain.

The things that are more internally focused, with our staff, and other operational needs, are something in her area. So, she came up with this really great way to think about it, and it’s helped us, every time we’ve come up with a problem, is this concept of foreign or domestic policy.

If it’s foreign policy, it’s clearly my area. If it’s about stakeholder engagement, external partnerships, strategic directions, I get the trumping vote, if you will. It’s my call. I would always bring her along for the conversation, to help make sure we’re aligned. But it is my call.

Operationally focused, over how teams are formed, what we’re going to do, do we need to hire additional, do we not, what do we need, is really is all domestic. It’s her call. Right? But there’s a lot of things that are kind of somewhere in between those that actually aren’t clearly domestic, aren’t clearly foreign.

And we’ve talked about, that in those kind of things, like the one of us, we can have the conversation that it’s a little bit of both. But actually, it may have more impact in one or the other. So, one of us takes one step forward. But it does require more conversation around. Although right now, we’re agreeing on so many things, the conversation isn’t long.

But that’s how we’ve decided to parse the work, or start thinking about how we approach things. I get contracts across my desk on a regular basis about things in the marketing world, and things like that about how we’re branding, in different countries, and other things. That’s clearly the foreign world.

We’re working on a new building. We may be moving to another location. And how we are positioned there, and how the teams are, that’s very domestic. So, she’s thinking about that. That’s just kind of been the mental model that we’ve had, over how to decide on things. And so far, it’s worked out really well.

ROXI OZOLINS: Wow. That seems like a really powerful approach to leading this company. Do you think other organizations should adopt something similar? Or is the experiment not at that place yet, where you could ultimately make a decision like that?

HOWARD SUBLETT: Well, what’s a little bit crazy is that there’s actually, I already know one company in Germany, after we announced what we were doing, he relinquished his CEO title, and took on a Product Owner role, and he was hiring a Chief Scrum Master for his organization. And they’re going to be equals, within that. So, he was 100% owner of his company. And now, he realizes, if you think about it, in this Agile space we’ve been talking for years about pair programing. And this idea of pair coaching, together.

Basically, this is pair leadership, right? We have a shared responsibility to lead the organization. Neither one of us can be successful without the other. So, it’s a way to think about a pair. Pair leadership, if you will. So far, it’s been really good. We’re just a few months into this. I’m hoping, we’ve been trying to keep good journal entries. And you know me personally, I’m terrible at writing in a journal.

At the same time, we are capturing the story along the way, so that if this model brings fruit, and becomes very empowerful to be able to work, we can share this with other organizations.

ROXI OZOLINS: Yeah! I’m immediately struck by that concept of being able to focus on your strengths. And knowing that there’s someone else doing the same. And together, you guys are more powerful than separate, and I love that. During this time, and this experiment, how has this changed your definition of an Agile leader? Or has it?

HOWARD SUBLETT: You know, I don’t know that my definition has changed. I think that it’s easy for us, in different ways, to see something, and it becomes very simple to think about how that person should lead in that? As somebody as a consultant, so previous life being a consultant, being a coach, it seems like the decisions that somebody else make are much easier that they should have done X, they should have done Y.

Now you live in this, right? You live in this tension of what is it truly like to embody these principles and values, and have everybody watch you, right? To be that, and to be that in every moment. I don’t think my definition of what an Agile leader has changed.

But I do know, that I don’t know that I fully understood what the real weight of real leadership meant. I thought I did. People’s livelihoods, and staff member’s futures, and everything weighing on every decision. Even if you’re empowering those decisions, and things go sideways, how do you pivot from that? Knowing that sometimes, in this kind of thing, you don’t really know what’s clearly a right answer or wrong answer. Most of them are kind of gray answers. Nothing’s black or white. But one seems more right than wrong, and so you can make a move one way.

But carrying the weight of all of the potential, unintended consequences of the thing that you’ve done, with the best of intentions, still, is something I think I hadn’t really fully absorbed. I think I was kind of excited, and maybe a little bit naïve, let’s just be honest, about how it would it be. It would be great to be able to steer the ship, and to make the right decisions, for the right call, and to do the right things.

I’m trying to live that, every single day. And for me, this isn’t a job, it’s like a calling, it’s something I have to do. But I didn’t really, fully, kind of embrace or understand what that weight does to you. To your emotions, to your lack of sleep, to all these other things. So, I teasingly tell people I’m learning to swim in the deep end of the pond, sometimes.

We’re going to make mistakes. Everybody’s going to make mistakes. But Melissa and I have kind of made a commitment that we know we’re going to make mistakes, because we’re not perfect, right? And this whole thing about agility as being able to be a little bit vulnerable, and risk, and be transparent, and stuff.

What we decided is that, yes, we’re going to make some mistakes. But, by God, we don’t want to make somebody else’s mistakes. We want to make brand new mistakes. We want to make mistakes that no one else has ever made before. Because we had the courage to try something. We had the courage to say no to one thing, so we could say yes to something even better.

Because we believed in the mission of the organization. We’ve made this commitment to each other, that the mistakes that we’re going to make are going to be powerful, and they’re going to be new mistakes no one else has ever made. But we’ll adapt from them. And still help the organization move forward.

ROXI OZOLINS: I love it. I love it. So, what are, if you can think of some, some of these tangible ways that this paired leadership has impacted the journey of the Scrum Alliance.

HOWARD SUBLETT: Wow. It’s hard, because I’ve been so deep into it, sometimes I don’t even think about what impact we’re having. I’m hopeful, or I’m optimistic, that the way that Melissa and I are living our values, and we’re leading from our values, not from a position of authority but of a position of true servant leadership, that that instills confidence in the staff, in the direction going forward.

We’ve seen that tangibly here. We’ve also seen it within our community. We’ve got a rather large community, and we get countless number of emails, and Twitter direct messages and whatnot from different people in the community, kind of cheering us on for being so bold, to try something new, right?

I think that the idea of the Scrum Alliance, trying desperately with every thread of our being, to lead with authenticity, to lead from those values, is refreshing. And hopefully, inspiring for those that are paying attention.

ROXI OZOLINS: I love it. So, what’s next? What is this next six months in this role, with you and Melissa. What does success look like?

HOWARD SUBLETT: Well, you’ve caught us right in the middle of a very interesting week, by the way, that we’re teeing off that next six weeks. The Scrum Alliance as an organization has done lots of great things over the years, and has been a valuable asset. And the staff here has done tremendous things.

At the same time, the needle has swung a little bit far into the reporting structures, and swung a little bit far into the hierarchy of how the organization was structured. And so, this week actually, I took a break from that to come do this recording with you.

Our team, our entire staff is over there, completely reorganizing, to better serve our population. To serve our community. So, instead of working within a department, and then waiting on that department to finish something so that another department can take something on, they actually are going to be working in cross-functional teams.

Teams that have elements of marketing, have elements of education, have elements of IT, have elements of customer service, and membership. All collaborating as small team of seven people, thinking about a persona or an audience member within our community, and how can we serve their needs better? What would their priorities be. How can we provide them with best in class service, and focus on them as a customer?

So they’re currently doing those team selections. We’re allowing everybody to self-select into whichever audience personas that they most identify with. They’re taking all the existing work that, as individuals, they had responsibility for, and we’re organizing all that work into, away from single person accountability for those to team-based accountability, into different teams.

They’ll go through team chartering, they’ll go through persona-mapping and other things for theirs, and then initial backlog creation, for those personas. So, I think we’re going to have a week or two or three or four. Every time someone starts a new Scrum team, or starts a new Agile team, as we all know, the first sprint or so, they take on more things than they can get accomplished.

By the second sprint, they typically take on less than they can get done. By the third sprint, they’re getting more normalized, and they’re starting to hit their stride of a sustainable pace that allows them still some buffer and slack to be creative. But yet, lets them hit that sustainable delivery.

I think the next six or eight weeks, really, internally operationally focus, that’s going to be key for us. They’re going to be looking at their audience and their personas group, through the lens of the strategy, for us as a company, and the mission statement of how can they serve them better.

I believe that our community is going to see a much more rapid response time, for services to them, to their needs. I believe that we’re going to see much faster time to market for new products, for those audience members. New services, new research projects, new whatever it is that they need, to be able to do their job, to help create a sustainable, profitable, and joyful workplace.

This is why we’re here. So, I’m excited, and the teams are really excited to start dreaming, finally, and to have that autonomy, if you will, to be able to dream for that persona, and advocate for them, and just try to delight them. Which is something that we haven’t been able to do, the way we were structured. The next six weeks or so is going to be really focused on getting that right, and learning to run, in a way. And giving the teams, honestly, grace to make some mistakes, grace to figure it out. I’m super excited about that.

ROXI OZOLINS: Wow. What do you feel like are the possible obstacles or challenges, that could stand in your way?

HOWARD SUBLETT: Well, the unknown unknowns. So, we’re learning in some of the team formations that we have, that we may not have all of the right people that we need for a self-organizing team, and a cross-functional team. We may not have enough of a skill set, so we likely are gonna have to hire for a few roles in some of the teams. So, we know that.

The staff here is- one of the things I was a little bit afraid of, just to be honest with you, in the beginning, that it would be really easy for us to fall back into old ways of working. But now that I’ve watched the teams go through these, and start dreaming about the future, I think I’m less worried about that, as a risk.

I think that they’re really hungry for a chance to work in this way. The biggest risk that we probably have is, and it’s not really a risk, so that’s probably the wrong word for it. Basically, we’re trading, as an organization, we’re trading dependencies between departments, for the requirement for alignment amongst teams.

So, the marketing piece within team one has to coordinate with the marketing piece within team two, over marketing efforts. Now, if team one could release something, independently, they should be wise to coordinate and align on branding, timing, all those other things. Same thing with IT, same thing for other departments, if you will.

But they don’t have to wait for the other one, in order to do something. It’s going to take us a little bit. They have to learn how to work as a cross-functional team. At the same time, what does real alignment mean? So we’re going to call those community of practices, or guilds. I’m not sure what the naming will be.

Those, like a marketing department, marketing group will get together, on a regular basis, and share. We also have regular sprints, where we have releases of all the teams that are showing their work. And that brings alignment, too. So, I think that might be fun, where one team has come up with some great idea, and they’re launching something really cool that may motivate the other team to do something cool for their personas, as well.

I’m interested in what they’re going to create. Because this is a tremendously creative group of people, here. So, I think the alignment piece, and learning how does that work, may be the biggest risk, if that’s a risk?

ROXI OZOLINS: Yeah. Yeah, that sounds a little similar to some of the communities of practice we have here at SolutionsIQ. I’m curious, is there anything else, from your time here, and some of the changes and obstacles, and successes and failures, your time here, that you’ve brought with you?

HOWARD SUBLETT: Are you kidding me? I think I brought everything with me. It’s part of my whole self, right? It really is. There was a lot about the leadership structure, and the way that SolutionsIQ was put together, a lot of it is some of the basis of the models of what we’re rolling out right now. It’s different, because we’re a different kind of an organization. But yet, a lot of the principles are there.

For instance, myself and Melissa, like accounting, legal, that kind of an area, is drawn in our org chart on the bottom. We see ourselves as supporting role towards the teams. We don’t see ourselves as the leaders of those teams. We actually see ourselves, from SolutionsIQ language, as the stewards, if you will. Of helping to equip those teams to be successful. And the impediment removers.

ROXI OZOLINS: It’s this kind of connection with you, and the change that you’re bringing to the Scrum Alliance, and our belief in you, that actually has Accenture | SolutionsIQ back sponsoring the Scrum gathering at the end of May, in Austin. We’re really excited to be there. I just want to hear, now, how is this event different? What can people expect? What do you think about- the community, I think, is still, some people are a little unsure of- the acquisition of SolutionsIQ was a big deal, right? In the Agile community.

HOWARD SUBLETT: Right.

ROXI OZOLINS: I feel, and I am obviously biased, but I feel like it’s been an incredible opportunity to use the people and the passion and this nimbleness of the SolutionsIQ brand, and pair it with the power of Accenture. And we haven’t been at this event, and we still have a lot of coaches really embedded in your community, and we still want to be a part of the Agile community.

I’m excited to go. I’m excited to support you, and the event. How do you think that’s going to go over? What do you think this event is like? I’m curious, what do you think that’s going to be like, for us?

HOWARD SUBLETT: I think that that community will welcome you back with open arms. You sponsored it for years and years, and then you didn’t for a period of time. It’s actually great to have you back. And have you there as a sponsor. Sponsorship, for me, isn’t about money, in any way shape or form. It’s a vote of confidence, in a way.

I think, from you and I’s conversations before, and actually, and others in leadership there at SolutionsIQ, is that what your goals are, for the future, the audience that will be there, we’re expecting close to 1800 to be there at this event. That audience there is primed for what your direction is, as well.

It’s a good place for you to be. And it’s a good place for you to help shine your brand, and remind people of what you do, and why you do it. And if you haven’t been to a Scrum Gathering in a while, it’ll be interesting for me to hear your feedback on, there’s very, very few topics that are actually about Scrum, anymore. Early days in 2006 and 2007, most of the topics were about Scrum, but most of the things are much far beyond that. I’ll be interested, when your team is there, and how that they perceive the market, and perceive the people there, the audiences there. How they see it.

And of course, we’ve got one wonderful keynote that’s going to come. You know who’s coming, right?

ROXI OZOLINS: Is it still, just tell me, I don’t want to make a fool of myself.

HOWARD SUBLETT: Well, you’ve already done that, because you don’t remember. So we’ve got Daniel Pink coming to Austin.

ROXI OZOLINS: Yes, yes.

HOWARD SUBLETT: He’s one of those people with all the books that he’s written and everything, and probably 90% of the Agile training classes that are out there, show his RSA Animate talk on Drive, as part of the course ware. Because everybody wants to understand about autonomy, mastery, and purpose.

That actually part of the founding documents for our employee life cycle at SolutionsIQ, was talking about autonomy, mastery, and purpose. So, to have him there to help keynote, to set the tone for the event, and to be more impactful that way. He’s very, very inspirational.

I’m very excited to be there. Yeah, they’re really different events, and Austin, Texas, is all about being weird, anyway. But I think we’re going to add 1700 more weird to the city, while we’re there. So I’m excited about that.

ROXI OZOLINS: Wow. Wow. Where are the other events, this year? Where are the other gatherings? I feel like you guys are constantly adding new gatherings to the calendar. The expansion is incredible. What are some other events that are scheduled this year?

HOWARD SUBLETT: Oh my gosh. I’ve already been to so many places already, it’s a little crazy. So I have to- my wife has actually asked me, “So what country were you just in?” So, we’ve already had a regional in Hyderabad. I was in Medellín, Colombia, recently. We just had one we sponsored in Peru, that I didn’t get to attend.

We’ve got regionals in Beijing, coming up. Rio. Oh my gosh, I’m embarrassed, because there’s at least 9 or 10 regionals, coming up before the end of the year, that we’re the predominant sponsor for. And we sponsor because, if we don’t, those kind of people can’t come together, right? They don’t have the funds to book the venue and to take care of it, so we take the financial obligation off the table for them, so that they can bring people together.

After Austin, the next big event for us, is our next global, which is in Vienna, end of October. I think it’s the 28th through the 30th. And that will be another one that will sell out pretty quickly. Last year, our London gathering, at about that same time- just a heads up, for those of you that are listening, that may want to go to Europe. I don’t know what happened last year, and I’m not exactly sure why, but we had almost 300 people on the wait list for our London gathering.

We already expect, because of the traffic we’re getting for our Vienna gathering, that we will have people on a wait list. So, if you’re considering Vienna, it’s already up on the site, I think you can do some early bird. But I just wouldn’t wait too long. And the keynote for that is not yet announced.

I would say, just look at the website. There’s events all over, and if you’re in a region, and you’re hearing it, and you’d love a Scrum regional gathering in your area, reach out to us. Hit up the info ad, or our support ad on our website, and they’ll connect you to the right people, and we’ll see if we can’t help make those kind of things happen.

ROXI OZOLINS: Great. Besides these events, and the changes internally, and this experiment on paired leadership, what are some other exciting things that people should be looking out for, if they want to get involved, or be a part of this community, or just exciting changes for the Scrum Alliance?

HOWARD SUBLETT: I don’t think I can tell you that, quite yet.

ROXI OZOLINS: Ooh! Dot-dot-dot!

HOWARD SUBLETT: How about that. Yeah, there’s a few things coming that I just can’t talk about, quite yet. But I do think that what you’ll see is a renewed investment in bringing people together, a renewed investment in putting individuals and interactions first. And a renewed vigor towards the mission of the organization. Towards helping to ensure that we are helping to create those joyful, prosperous and sustainable workplaces. In all ways possible.

It’s not just about Scrum. We feel like, we as this organization, the first and oldest and largest Agile certifying body in the Agile space, and being the only certifying nonprofit, we have an obligation and a duty to try to bring us all together, and what is it says, “Rising tide rises all ships”?

We believe it is some of our responsibility to help rise the water level. And I think you’ll see that coming.

ROXI OZOLINS: You know, you really sound like a CEO right now.

HOWARD SUBLETT: You know, I don’t know, I just changed hats. No, I really-

ROXI OZOLINS: To a captain’s hat?

HOWARD SUBLETT: Yeah, to a captain’s hat. No, from CEO to Product Owner hat. I flipped it around. Yeah, I do. I believe in this stuff. If I didn’t believe in the power of us coming together, I wouldn’t be here. If I didn’t believe that we have the ability to impact the world of work, I wouldn’t do this job. I believe we can do this.

ROXI OZOLINS: No, we’ve always known that. This was this only company we’d ever be okay losing you to, if I can speak for the entire SolutionsIQ!

Okay, so I got one more question. So, it’s a year from the date you started, and you’re standing in front of your board, and your peers, and they’re giving you your review, and you’re talking about this year past.

If you had it your way, what would you have been known for? This last year. What would be this lasting legacy over all the changes, and the struggles, and the wins, and all of this. What would you be known for, come this next September?

HOWARD SUBLETT: That the organization is making a tremendous impact that is not reliant on me. That the things that they’re seeing have nothing to do with me, but the influence that I’ve been able to do, right? Because you don’t want to create an organization that’s reliant on you for everything, so that a year in, that the course is set, the staff is enabled and equipped, the community’s excited and moving forward. And it doesn’t depend upon me. And it’s not about me.

That would make me very happy. That the organic nature of it, and that people have gotten behind it, would make me very happy.

ROXI OZOLINS: Well, I really appreciate you taking the time to check in with us. I know that people have been very curious about this experiment, and I’m so happy that you’re able to be transparent and share some of this with us. I think people are probably learning a lot. We want to stay in touch. I hope that our relationship, as Accenture | SolutionsIQ and the Scrum Alliance continues to grow. Because we really do believe in you and Melissa, and the vision that you guys are setting for the Scrum Alliance. I’m excited that our relationship is back in a place where it’s growing. I definitely, I’m excited!

We will be at the Scrum gathering. So please, come say hi to us! Is there anything else that you want to let people know, Howard?

HOWARD SUBLETT: Nah. Come see me, Roxi. I miss you! How about that?

ROXI OZOLINS: I miss you too, Howard. All right, everyone! Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Agile Amped. We do this podcast because we want to make a difference. If you feel like you learned something new, tell a friend, tell a coworker, or tell us!

We appreciate it, and Howard, do you want to sign us off, here?

HOWARD SUBLETT: No.

ROXI OZOLINS: You don’t remember!

HOWARD SUBLETT: Yes, I do remember. But I think I hung that hat up, right? I think you have that hat, now.

ROXI OZOLINS: Oh, man!

HOWARD SUBLETT: I know.

ROXI OZOLINS: It always makes me cry! It really gets me emotional! So, stay tuned for more episodes, and we really appreciate it. Thank you again, Howard.

HOWARD SUBLETT: You got it. Thanks, Roxi.