Measuring Business Agility Outcomes

Sally Elatta is the president of Agile Transformation, Inc., and founder of AgilityHealth. Elatta shares her story of the growth of her company, what they have on their “culture wall” and the current state of business agility, as well as a taste of the future. The 2018 Business Agility Report revealed that, while team agility and what Elatta calls “team-of-teams agility,” companies are doing really well.

But in terms of business agility – particularly as applies to culture, leadership and support functions like HR, finance, marketing and others – the respondents of the 166 organizations who participated in the Report collectively rated themselves at the crawl-walk stage. Elatta sees this as a tremendous opportunity for enterprises to strive for more than just Agile transformation, but to reach for business agility. One area that she thinks will see huge shifts and positive changes in the next two or three years? HR.

Some of our favorite quotes from this podcast:

  • “Be bold, be real, and lead with love.”
  • “Iʻm allergic to negativity.”
  • “[As a] young girl from Sudan in Africa, [I] couldn’t have made it in this country if I didn’t believe in the art of the possible.”
  • “Gone are the days that large companies are eating small. Today, fast companies are eating slow.”

Accenture | SolutionsIQʻs Skip Angel hosts.

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Read the full transcript

SKIP ANGEL: Welcome to another edition of Agile Amped. I’m your host, Skip Angel. And today my guest is Sally Elatta. Sally is the president of Agile Transformation, Inc. She is the founder of AgilityHealth and author of Sally had been a thought leader in the space of business agility transformations and has advised many executives and leaders through their transformations. She’s a dynamic and engaging speaker who has a passion for measurable and sustainable transformations with a special focus on adaptive leadership and business agility. Again, thank you for joining us. Now, on to the conversation.

SALLY ELATTA: Hi. I’m glad to be here. Thanks Skip.

SKIP ANGEL: Thanks Sally. Appreciate your time today. So let’s jump right into it. I have known you for some time. And as a person that has been an entrepreneur, that has the entrepreneurial spirit and has been a woman, tell me a little bit about what it’s been like to own your organization. And what would your leadership philosophy be in how you’re leading AgilityHealth?

SALLY ELATTA: Well, I’ll tell you it’s been a fun ride. We are going to be entering our ten-year anniversary this year. So it’s a really big milestone for us. I’m very proud of it. And as an entrepreneur you just dream of building a company where you can say, “Hey we’ve been ten years in business. We don’t have any loans. We’ve been self funded.” So I’m definitely proud to be here.

We’ve also been hitting a pretty large growth stride. We’ve had 22 people last year and we’re at about 110, 115 this year.


SALLY ELATTA: So it’s been fast growing. In terms of leading the organization and just the leadership style. I did a session recently at the Women in Agile Conference and the title was really … And kind of summarizes who I am. Which is “Be bold, be real, and lead with love.” So those three things are very much how I lead.

I’m very bold and I’m very fearless. I think it’s my mother basically raised me to not be afraid of trying new things so that boldness is something where I just dream big and just see what we can get done.

Being real, which is just speaking from the heart and not talking [down to people]. Treating people equally. Being humble and being a servant leader. Letting people know when you’ve made a mistake. Telling people I don’t know. Those are things that are very important to me and we try to attract people that are the same way.

And then leading with love. So, I have a really big heart. I love people deeply. I love my customers. I love our team members. And I lead with love. So I really think of people first. I think of relationships. I’m less around just the business side and the money. I feel like all that stuff comes if you really have heart in what you do.

SKIP ANGEL: Well you just don’t hear enough about love when you talk about leadership styles so I really appreciate that love is part of the equation. We need to talk more about people as real people. And how we need to build relationships with each other. So that’s just, that’s refreshing to hear you say that.

So, you’re working with executives and leaders so how does that philosophy tie into what you’re helping leaders with this entire business agility idea? How does that influence, your style influence how you work with them.

SALLY ELATTA: Well, I mean, I think we’re really trying to help a lot of executives and leaders realize that this transformation – one, is not about Agile. it’s about enterprise agility and business agility. And in order for you to achieve that big vision, if you don’t think of the culture side of it. If you don’t change your leadership style. If you don’t know that you yourself have to change the way that you lead. I think a lot of organizations have leaned too heavily on the process transformation side. The agile, the Scrum, the Kanban, the stand-ups, the poster. All those mechanical things that we can control.

And we’ve been a little bit too shy on transforming ourselves. But most of this transformation is really 80% about the people and 20% about all that other stuff. So, we definitely have a large focus in our work. In everything that we do. The radars, the assessments, the coaching, the advising that we do. The strategy in terms of bringing in the culture and the leadership. And just letting leaders know in a very real way that this is going to have to start from the top in terms of this new way of working.

SKIP ANGEL: Yeah. There was something along the way when I started to … And I think you and I talked a few years back about this idea of business agility. Now it’s just exciting that there’s so many people talking about it. But to me, my epiphany came when I realized that it wasn’t just about process implementation and getting the process down. And for me to be successful it was really, almost one person at a time transforming. And it did … A lot of that momentum didn’t have to be necessarily me as a coach or advisor. But influencing the leaders to think that way as well and to help people through that change. But also think about personal transformation through that. So, I think it’s a really critical part … Probably, like you said, the biggest part of what this business agility is all about.

SALLY ELATTA: It’s “must have.” Otherwise, if you don’t do it that way I call it the lipstick syndrome. So we’re just going to put lipstick on something. An organization is going to look like it’s agile but it really isn’t in its DNA because we haven’t changed our behavior and our culture. And leaders are still stuck in their top down, I know better than you, I tell you what to do, Just get it done. And there’s … We’ve shifted away from that. That’s old school now.

SKIP ANGEL: Yup. it’s definitely old school. Alright. So you talk a lot about culture. A while back you had … I think you posted on Twitter a picture of – you moved your location of your company. And you had this thing called a culture wall up. And I just found it extremely fascinating. So I’d love to hear how you thought about that, why you did that, what’s on your wall, and what has been the impact by having that for your company.

SALLY ELATTA: So, the culture wall was … We kept thinking. Every company is thinking about this. How do you make culture real? How do you not just make it something that HR teaches us when you’re onboarding? Something that’s just on a slide deck on a pretty document? How do you really live and breathe it?

And we really just came together and said, “Let’s build a big wall in the center of our office that has out cultural values.” So we call it the culture wall. And so, that’s what we did. I’m looking at it right now as I speak to you. So it sits right in the center. It’s kind of right by the area where the break area is, where people can eat. And you just can’t miss it. It’s hard to miss.

I was also inspired. I actually visited a company called Infusionsoft and when I walked into that company to take a training workshop, I saw their core values and their culture plastered all over. And I was just fascinated by that. That everywhere you walked, everywhere. It was so visible, you almost couldn’t escape it.

So what we have on the wall is really a combination of the brainstorming session that I had everybody engage in. And I asked them just, “Why do you work here? What is it that fills your soul? What fills your bucket in our company?” And they put these words together. We just made them look pretty.

But I won’t read all of them but it’s things like: we do what we say we’re going to do. We practice what we preach. We are servant leaders at heart. So we said that was really important to us. That we find and attract servant leaders. We are thought leaders in our industry. We don’t just follow, we lead. We live by humble, hungry, and smart. That comes from Patrick Lencioni book of The Ideal Team Player. So we look for those three traits. We really love positive energy. I’m certainly allergic to negativity and people that say things can’t get done.

So I’ve got this allergy. Because I always tell people, “Hey. A young girl from Sudan in Africa couldn’t have made it in this country if I didn’t think of the art of the possible.”

SKIP ANGEL: Wow. Yeah.

SALLY ELATTA: And I learned the art of the possible from Jean Tabaka, may she rest in peace. So definitely positive energy. We like to have fun. We care deeply about each other. We lift each other up. Another one that we love is that we are trusted partners to our customers. We don’t like using the word “vendor.” So if anybody calls us a vendor I won’t work with them. So those are the kind of things that are here.

Oh, my favorite one is we plant seeds not weeds about each other. So planting seeds is speaking positively about each other and about our strategy. And not speaking negatively and creating that layer below the surface where you kind of get people that are talking about each other but not talking face to face. We’ve seen that in a lot of the large companies that we transform. And so we try to nip that at the bud right away and plant seeds and not weeds. Or unpluck the weeds if you have planted one.

SKIP ANGEL: Fantastic. And how has it impacted things when you put it up there?

SALLY ELATTA: We hire people for this. We introduce people to it. We really qualify people based on it. And I can tell you a lot of people we’ve had to let go because of specific items on this. Elements on this culture wall that weren’t true. During onboarding we ask people, “What are your hopes and dreams? Why are you here?” And many of them point to the wall. They say, “We hope this wall is true here because that’s what we want. We want to live in a culture that’s like this.” So I think it’s really dramatically impacted our company. And we’re not perfect but we absolutely strive to meet the values on that wall every day.

SKIP ANGEL: Well and it’s not just about putting it up on a wall. I was at a client and I saw some values up on the wall and I liked all the values. They were very similar I think to some of the things that you had up there. And I got very excited. And then as I started talking to people in the organization I said, “Oh yeah. Those values are really good.” “Oh well, yeah, they told us what those values were in a town hall.”


SKIP ANGEL: “Those values aren’t ours.” What’s really refreshing I think, about the way you did it is that culture is us.


SKIP ANGEL: It’s not about you putting down what you think the organization should be. it’s about what do we want it to be for us.


SKIP ANGEL: And it makes it … not only made it real, but made it living.

SALLY ELATTA: And I would even say to even add upon that. The words that we have on those walls are used almost daily. I mean, I don’t think there’s a meeting or a session where one of our leaders or one of our people … Like one of our core values that’s up there is impact over effort. Which is basically outcomes over output. And that gets said a lot. We stop in the meeting and say, “I’m sorry guys, are we talking about a lot of effort here because where is the impact? We’re not hearing the impact.”

So they’re using the words in a day-to-day fashion and that’s what makes it real.

SKIP ANGEL: Fantastic. So let’s talk a little bit about business agility because that’s a big part of what your company is all about. For people that are not necessarily familiar with that term, what does business agility mean to you? How would you define it?

SALLY ELATTA: Sure. So I collaborated with Evan Leybourn on this definition and obviously we teach business agility so I’m going to give you the actual definition that we teach which is, it’s the ability to adapt to change as an organization. Learn and pivot. Deliver at speed and thrive in a competitive market.

So we’re not talking about surviving in a competitive market. We’re talking about thriving in a competitive market. And the reason for this movement to business agility is it’s … Gone are the days where large companies are eating small. Today fast companies are eating slow. So your ability to learn, deliver quickly, and pivot is really the only competitive advantage an organization has anymore. So that’s kind of the summary.

And all these large companies … Their size is actually not a competitive advantage anymore. It slows them down. And so they’re all day to day wondering and trying to figure out a strategy for how am I going to achieve that agility because I don’t want to be disrupted. I want to be the disruptor. If that makes sense…

SKIP ANGEL: So one of the things in addition to the definition is I know that you … There was a report published. A business agility report published in 2018. And they leverage your AgilityHealth tool. So tell me how that came in to being and what were some of the highlights of that report?

SALLY ELATTA: Yeah. So, we worked with the Business Agility Institute and collaborated on this. And we’re actually … We’re going to be collaborating with Accenture in this next report that’s coming up. Which is very exciting. And Evan Leybourn we took sort of the domains of business agility. We built a radar in assessment. And we launched it. And we had about 400 respondents from about 166 different companies that responded to it. And we asked them related to those domains of business agility, “How are you doing? How would you rate yourself? And what are the benefits of business agility?”

And I think what we’ve realized and the findings is that it was a lower rating. So I think that the average overall was a 4.1 or 4.5 score out of 10 in terms of overall business agility for the current industry. We did use sort of what we call a pre crawl, walk, run, fly. And so think about that was pretty much at the crawl to walk stage, right? Just kind of still crawling.

Most of what we’ve learned is that people are still struggling to get transforming the culture. So we just had a really nice conversation about that which is – the cultural side hasn’t come on board. The new funding model is an impediment. HR hasn’t come on board yet. Finance is still issue. A lot of the supporting functions such as sales and marketing.

And another really big ah-ha is just, in general, enterprise agility hasn’t been achieved. So we’ve formed agile teams, Skip. And we’ve worked on what I call team-level agility. And we actually even worked a little bit on what I call team of team agility. Which is sort of getting those … The team-of-team program layer trains to actually be mature.

But organizational agility and enterprise agility and designing our organization around value streams, becoming more outcome-oriented as apposed to output-oriented, that whole enterprise and organizational agility – that we haven’t invested as much in yet.

So those were some of the findings and it’s exciting because looking at that report, which we’ll continue to do, you see that there’s a huge opportunity in the market. And I think this is the big shift away from just agile transformation and talking about the methods into business agility transformations.

SKIP ANGEL: Yeah. I totally agree and it’s great to start to … For people. Even organizations to realize that agile doesn’t have to be confined to a way you do a project or that it only applies to product development. But is really a way of organizing and operating as a business. Thinking differently. Working differently. And that can be universal across the org. [It] needs to … What’s interesting when I first looked at agile, and a lot of organizations look at is as, well we just need to break down the silos within out IT or engineering area. So let’s break down dev and QA and other roles like that.

Now it’s more about breaking down those silos between operations, IT, sales, marketing, HR, finance. Now we’re trying to figure out how do we collaborate and work together at that level.


SKIP ANGEL: And what would that do for a company. So it’s exciting times for sure. So how would people … I know that you just opened up the survey for 2019. How would people be able to put their information in for it?

SALLY ELATTA: Yeah. I’ll send you the link but it is on our website. So our website is With a dash there. So if people can’t remember all that we can maybe put it at the bottom of this Podcast. And again we’ll just send you a link to that.

SKIP ANGEL: And we’d love to hear from you and obviously the more input we get across organizations, the more valuable this will be to understand how the current state of where things are at with business agility.

SALLY ELATTA: Yeah. I definitely encourage everybody listening to fill it out because the beautiful thing is it’s not like this one time survey where you just fill it and you don’t see the results. You actually see your radar immediately. And you can see benchmark data immediately. So at the end of the survey you see how you’re rated in the radar and you also see benchmark data for everybody else that’s answered. How did you match up to them.

And of course Evan and I and our partners here at Accenture, we’re going to be putting together even a formal report with the new findings that come from it. So I do encourage people to fill it out and send it to your leader. Send it to everybody in the company just to get their opinion on how and where you’re doing.

SKIP ANGEL: Fantastic. So, you’re the, what somebody described to me, you’re the radar lady. There’s a bunch of radars or wheels or whatever else you want to do to describe them. So let’s talk a little bit about AgilityHealth and the radars and … I kind of want to start from what problems were you trying to solve that wasn’t being achieved elsewhere? So what … obviously when we look look at a solution we look at what problems are we trying to solve with this solution. So what was the problems you were trying to solve with these radars?

SALLY ELATTA: Yeah. There are three measurement problems that we were attempting to solve. One of them is clarity and alignment. The other one is measurement. And the third one is intentionally growing the organization. So let me just start with the first one.

You can’t transform an organization on this business agility journey if you don’t have clarity and alignment on what success looks like. So, if I have a definition … So let’s say part of this business agility journey is DevOps maturity. Part of it is going to be lean product health maturity. Part of it will be our teams are healthy. Another part of it is going to be, let’s say enterprise business agility maturity or portfolio. So there’s complexity here. There’s different parts of the organization need to mature and grow. But if we don’t have a common language. If you don’t have common agreement on what good looks like, how can we row in the same direction?

So that circle – that beautiful radar with the colors that everybody sees – my only intent from that radar was clarity and alignment. Can we agree on what’s the problem area we’re trying to transform? And what’s the maturity road man look like? What’s crawl, walk, run, fly look like for all these competencies? Because if your definition of DevOps is different than my definition of DevOps, then how are we supposed to, at the organizational level, all move in the same direction? So that’s the radar. The purpose of the radar is that clarity and alignment.

What we’ve also introduced with AgilityHealth is a continuous improvement measurement program. Which is every quarter – if we’re serious, If we’re serious about improving whatever those area are. Our team health and maturity, our DevOps maturity, the role of the manager. Whatever area you’re trying to improve. You should probably measure it every quarter and come up with a growth plan and actually improve. I think we know that a lot of companies that accelerate in their journey are serious about it because they continuously learn, inspect, and adapt.

So we’re trying to take this idea of that retrospective that we all love. Which is every two weeks in a sprint. Into a quarterly organizational wide retrospective where we measure where are we? How are we doing? And what can we improve on in the next quarter? So that’s basically what AgilityHealth does is it give you the ability to take any of our existing radars or built your own. Measure against it across all of your teams. Across all of your portfolios. Come up with some concrete improvement plans. Commit to it as an organization. And actually do something about it in the next quarter. And then re measure again.

SKIP ANGEL: Well you took to heart that continuous improvement is kind of the biggest part of all this. The biggest element of Agility. And so, it’s great to see that not only do you have a way for organizations to figure out how to look at where they’re at but also ways to improve. I’m excited that I was able to provide some input not only to the tool but also some of the videos along with other thought leaders that are a part of the growth portal. It was just fantastic to see where that’s evolved.

So I’m curious, you’ve been at this for a couple of years. What kind of radars are you coming up with? Are you thinking about? And what has been … What have you heard back from organizations? What’s been the impact to all this?

SALLY ELATTA: It’s been … Well, the traction has been tremendous. That’s why hence our growth. We’ve grown so fast. We’ve got a lot of really large enterprises coming on board. And I think the objective of all of them is to accelerate this journey. They want to go through this journey a little bit faster than what they’ve seen. And they know that measurements and continuous improvement is really going to the the way to do that.

So, within AgilityHealth the radars that we have at the team level. We have the team health radar. We also have a technical health radar.

At that team of team program level we have three radars that one of them is on DevOps. Another one is on lean product health and lean product maturity. Really getting that discover process to be more mature. We also have some scaled agile radars and the Agile Release Train health assessment.

And then at the portfolio level we have our EBA. Our Enterprise Business Agility radar that has the seven pillars of business agility.

And we’ve built a ton of role-based radars. So we also have customers that want to improve the role and mature the role of scrum masters. Mature the role of their product owners or product managers. Their RTEs. Their agile managers and leaders. So we’ve also done a lot around talent development.

But beyond the radars, what I’m really excited about, our kind of newest capability. And this came from the industry. And it came from Gartner and all of them. Is executives and leaders are saying, “How do I align all of my teams to outcomes?” The consistent complaint that I hear from them is everybody is busy but I’m pretty sure they’re not working on what’s important for me right now. How can I communicate to all these people what actually matters. What are the real outcomes. Not just the output. They’re all giving me features and stories but they’re not making a business impact.

So we have just released our business outcome and OKR alignment dashboard.

SKIP ANGEL: Wow. Okay.

SALLY ELATTA: And it is very exciting. Yeah. Because of the possibility of these teams understanding the value of what they offer and what they do.

SKIP ANGEL: Well, one of the things about your radars I thought was different when I first got exposed to them is I was a little bit dismayed by a lot of things that … Especially when you taught that the team level was about getting … It was very prescriptive on getting the process down right. You’re doing a stand up a certain way. You’re doing this role a certain way. And it was always defined by a particular person’s opinion. Whoever wrote that assessment.

Your assessments seem to be different from that. And it seems like it’s much more … You talk about output versus outcome. It feels very much more like where you need to get to versus making sure you’re following the process correctly. Is that, would you agree with that?

SALLY ELATTA: Yeah. Exactly. it’s really “what are the behaviors that we’re going to have to change so that we can get the results that we’re after” as opposed to a checklist of “here’s everything you need to do to be Scrum compliant.” So it’s not like that. That’s why we call the team-level radar the team health. Is it … For you to be a healthy team. And so culture and leadership and foundation are all part of it. And teams have given us feedback that they love the crawl, walk, run, fly because in the questions … We used to before just ask the question of, “Hey. Are you awesome in this area?” And of course everybody said they’re awesome in whatever the area is that you’re going to ask.

SKIP ANGEL: Yeah. Yeah.

SALLY ELATTA: So we became a little bit more detailed in , “Hey. Crawling looks like this. Walk looks like this. Run looks like this and flying – where do you really think you are?” In being a little bit more specific. The other key element of this is this is not a survey. it’s not just something that you just send out to people and they answer at their desk. It was very important for us to be done as a retrospective. People are coming together. They’re answering the questions. They’re looking at their radar together. The radar just becomes a communication tool for them to say, “Hmm. Oh I didn’t know we all disagreed that there’s a problem here.”

And then they are the ones coming up with their growth plan. And I can’t tell you how important that is. Because up until that point my frustration was all of my coaches and myself we would send surveys. We would have to analyze the surveys for another two to three weeks. We would collect the data and then we would, top down, tell them, “Here’s our recommended. Here’s what we recommend you do to get better.”

It’s very important that the people themselves say, “Here’s where we want to improve in the next quarter.” There are their ideas.

SKIP ANGEL: Great. Fantastic. So I want to change course a little bit here and wrap up our conversation with something you and I talked about probably, gosh, three years ago. I remember being in your office and talking about both our hopes and dreams of where we wanted this stuff to go. And I just though it was really fascinating and I’d love for you to share with this audience what you brought up as your life’s mission. And especially around HR. And tell me where you’re at with that. And has that dream changed at all for you?

SALLY ELATTA: Well I think it’s a common dream that all of us change agents have which is – we want people to love coming to work every day. We want them to feel inspired by the purpose of what they’re working on. We want them to feel that they have autonomy. We want them to feel like they’re making a difference, right? Just going back to Daniel Pink’s Autonomy, Mastery, Purpose. What motivates people.

This isn’t just about making more money for a company. I don’t think all of us are driven by that. We want these organizations to be purpose driven. So where that leads us is this has got to be beyond technology transformation. This is an organizational level new way of working. And the only way to do that is to bring in HR. And so we … I have worked a lot with ICAgile and with a lot of HR leaders and transformation leaders on this vision of what does it look like for HR to transform and become …

Have a seat at the table if not lead the table in the future – in that there’s a lot that we do today that’s too tradition and just doesn’t work. The way that we do performance management. The yearly reviews. The appraisal process. The job description. There’s just so much of it that’s very mechanical and doesn’t fit within this new way of working and quite frankly is going to be turning off a lot of this new generation.

So that movement has started. We’ve created that certification with ICAgile. Well it’s called the ICAgile Talent Track. And we’ve ran our first workshop actually just a few months ago and brought in HR professionals. And I’ll tell you they’re excited and scared at the same time. This will be a fundamental 180 shift to what they do today. Because it impacts every part of their business. Learning and develop and performance management, reward systems, hiring, job descriptions, feedback loops. All of that stuff is kind of impacted. But the good news is I think that they’re open to it.

And I think that you’ll see in the next two to three years, there will be major transformation on the HR side. And I think Fabiola [Eyholzer] would even say it’s not even going to be called HR because we don’t like the word “resources” as we talk to people.

SKIP ANGEL: Resources.

SALLY ELATTA: Yeahs. So that’s going to be a bad word and we might actually call the whole thing “people operations.” Or, it’s going to be about people. And Fabiola, she also talks about some of the very administrative function of HR. It might actually move back to legal or to accounting or finance so that HR can really actually play more of a critical role in the organization. So it’s exciting. I think we’re in front of really exciting times on the business agility side.

SKIP ANGEL: Well, agile and lean and everything we’ve been working on from a software and product development perspective. Why not change the way we look at people and we look at financing and we look at other parts of the organization. Let’s have manifestos that change those. And they collect better for us in organizations. So it’s great to see that you along with other people are really focusing a lot on the people that should be focused on us. And how do we work better together as a community within an organization.


SKIP ANGEL: So fantastic stuff. Where can people learn more about you and your company? Where can they find out more?

SALLY ELATTA: Sure. They can go to So and they will learn about our platform. Our vision. And what we’re hoping to do to accelerate the business agility journey. That’s really our objective is how do we help this journey go a little bit faster and a little bit easier through all the knowledge that we’ve gained from all the other companies around these various areas that are required.

And it’s a big … That’s kind of my final message, I guess, conclusion for everybody that’s listening is – this is a big journey. And it is a journey. And it’s going to take multiple years. And you can’t just focus on one area or the other. Unfortunately, it’s going to take a focus on culture and leadership. Yes, agile is important. You’re going to have to think about portfolio management. You’re going to have to rethink your organizational design. Technology and DevOps is important. And also being customer driven and lean product development – all of those are elements of this transformation. And it’s not going to be easy to just focus on one or the other. You’re going to have to have a holistic strategy for this.

SALLY ELATTA: But it’s worth the journey for sure.

SKIP ANGEL: It’s worth the journey. Well Sally, I just love everything you’re doing and just have so much respect and just keep doing what you’re doing.

SALLY ELATTA: Thank you, it’s mutual, Skip. The love goes both ways, my friend.

SKIP ANGEL: Yeah. Let’s go change the world.

SALLY ELATTA: Let’s do it.

SKIP ANGEL: Alright. Alright. So Sally I really appreciate the conversation and [you] taking time to talk with me today and to our listeners. Appreciate your time. Thank you.

SALLY ELATTA: Thank you. it’s been a pleasure.

SKIP ANGEL: And thanks everybody else that’s listening to this edition of Agile Amped. If you’ve learned something new, please tell a friend, a coworker, or a client about our podcast. And subscribe to hear more inspiring conversations. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time. Thank you